CWBolton PC discussion

[lonewolfxix]

Hi its chris here, ive noticed you around the forums and ive seen that you know your stuff about pcs. Im thinking about getting a new computer. (prefer it prebuilt) Im a 3d modeler so think i need ram and core's (i think not sure) and, im a programmer im looking for a cheap desktop maybe for gaming to mainly MMO's also i need fast internet, quick loading and rendering times. Also it needs to have large memory and a decent processer i have no idea where to start this is what i would like in my new pc i have no idea where to start looking maybe you can guide me and tell me if you think i need anything changing all the best chris

So I have been looking, I've had a look at Vadim and Dell so far, If you could tell me how much you are willing to spend on this PC and what programs you'd specifically use that are the most taxing on your current system and I'll have more of a look into it. :-)

This is the ticket for you made by me.
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Please, everyone in future use the forum to post your questions rather than PM, it makes it easier for me and people can read through the forum rather than asking questions I've answered for other people before, Thank you!

[cwbolton]

the programmes i most use are blender, photoshop, microsoft visual c#, c++' vb and j# also i use the internet alot too and i would say around ?500 max ok i know its not that much but its all i have

[lonewolfxix]

So ?500 isn't much to work with, about the best I can find is ?600 at PC World, the Packard Bell 2589 with the following spec:

Intel Core2Duo E6320
1024mb of RAM (DDR2-533 2x512mb)
250GB S-ata Harddrive
ATI Radeon 1650SE 256mb Graphics

This pc is decent for your requirements, a RAM is an almost must have upgrade for such a system but a system like this the RAM can be had at ?30/GB brand new. I'll have more of a look but this is so far the best I've found

Packard Bell 2589 (http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/store/pcw_page.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0145876910.118797379 6@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccedaddlklidmhdcflgceggdhhmdgml.0&page=Product&fm=null&sm=null&tm=null&sku=543054&category_oid=-27735)

[cwbolton]

this looks very good but its only 1.86ghz (does that mean anything)and have you heared of overlocking the bios in ordeer to raise it im not sure but my friend does it on his laptop but id really like something like that but with a better processor speed if possible

[LiNuX]

dont worry about processor speed, doesnt mean much, it has a lot of space, lot of memory, and good features :D it looks good

[lonewolfxix]

I think you'll find it's a 1.86ghz and it's a dual core. Most manufacturers will not allow you to overclock the processor, only Dell XPS and other enthusiast companies/lines are you allowed to overclock processors. I overclock my processor a lot so I know what overclocking is :P I build a lot of PC's around the basis of overclocking and gaming ;)

[cwbolton]

can i overlock this one?

[lonewolfxix]

A Packard Bell? highly unlikely.
Overclocking a factory machine built on price is also generally a bad idea due to badly selected parts and insufficient power and cooling. A 1.86ghz Core2Duo is enough for what you said you were doing. On the memory side, another GB or more is recommended and when it comes to it and you have the money I can find you some more RAM for it, another worthy investment may be a GeForce 8 series for how the new DirectX10 works it could be very beneficial for how well the PC performs even a low end one.

[cwbolton]

how much would that geforce 8 series be

oh and where can i get cheap ram

[LiNuX]

how much would that geforce 8 series be

oh and where can i get cheap ram

dont double post, i merged your post, if u have something else to say just edit your post if no one made a past after you :)

dont know if u have circuit city over there but u can find cheap ram there lol

[lonewolfxix]

Circuit City doesn't exist here :-) Ebuyer have an offer on a certain stick of RAM right now.. OCZ DDR2-800 1Gb in their value range for ?30, but that's a bit too much in terms of speed and I can't Garuntee they'll work until I know more about the PC (RAM speed etc.)

A base GeForce 8 series can cost as little as ?32 but it won't compare to the one that already comes with it in terms of games performance, but it'll be better for any processor intensive applications (perhaps you get into movie editing) ?55 is probably the minimum I'd recommend, it's not a necessity and the stock one should be good, unless it's onboard then it'll be lame lol..but you can get an Asus 8400GS for ?33 which'll be able to share the load with the processor when processing data such as video and images or an 8500GT which'll cost about ?55 and also provide low>midrange graphics while the 8600 series which will cost ?80-?130 will provide good mid-range performance.
These cards are worse than current generation/last generation cards like the GeForce 7 series but are more future proof and take load off CPU's when it comes to any sort of processing.

[Thor Erik]

A Packard Bell? highly unlikely.
Overclocking a factory machine built on price is also generally a bad idea due to badly selected parts and insufficient power and cooling. A 1.86ghz Core2Duo is enough for what you said you were doing. On the memory side, another GB or more is recommended and when it comes to it and you have the money I can find you some more RAM for it, another worthy investment may be a GeForce 8 series for how the new DirectX10 works it could be very beneficial for how well the PC performs even a low end one.
My hardware tip would be not to buy ANY DX10 card, since ms has announced 10.1 to be around the corner, and it requires new cards.
So buying a dx10 card won't get you far(Consider there is only a dusin games made for dx10, the others will be 10.1)

Also remember to buy 2x 1 GB sticks, or 1x 2 GB


ps. please don't mix Gb and GB, 1 GB is incredibly litle :P ( 0.125 GB)

[lonewolfxix]

Dx10 cards are proving good for all around media usage in my opinion and the unified shader architecture that is in DX10 makes a good addition to any turnkey system that is in need of a bit more grunt in both the cpu and graphics market in my opinion, although, you are right, DX10.1 is coming out in the near future but when you're spend ?30-?50 on a card it doesn't make much difference especially if you're not an enthusiast gamer who demands the latest and greatest. DX10 hardware may not be able to run in DX10.1 but it'll still run on the older DirectX10 which already looks good, the price you pay the soon as you buy anything in the world of technology is that the soon as you buy it, the cost of it drops or a newer better model comes out, think of it this way, and this comes from a lot of people.
"the longer the wait, the better you'll get, but the longer you wait so the market will change and bring a new technology, ultimately ending in an endless cycle of new technology that you want to make sure your PC is the best, buy what you need when you need it and stop waiting."

[Thor Erik]

Dx10 cards are proving good for all around media usage in my opinion and the unified shader architecture that is in DX10 makes a good addition to any turnkey system that is in need of a bit more grunt in both the cpu and graphics market in my opinion, although, you are right, DX10.1 is coming out in the near future but when you're spend ?30-?50 on a card it doesn't make much difference especially if you're not an enthusiast gamer who demands the latest and greatest. DX10 hardware may not be able to run in DX10.1 but it'll still run on the older DirectX10 which already looks good, the price you pay the soon as you buy anything in the world of technology is that the soon as you buy it, the cost of it drops or a newer better model comes out, think of it this way, and this comes from a lot of people.
"the longer the wait, the better you'll get, but the longer you wait so the market will change and bring a new technology, ultimately ending in an endless cycle of new technology that you want to make sure your PC is the best, buy what you need when you need it and stop waiting."
Well latest things, is unless the game is made for DX 9 and 10, the 8800 GTX(!) Can't meet the demmands DX10 requires, the GPU is strong enugh, but the fbus is just too slow.
Flight Sim X CAN NOT run on DX10, due to 2 things:
1. the patch is broken (boomer ms ^^)
2. the current DX10 cards are not strong enugh.
The 8xxx series is practically worthless, cause the overall preformance of it is just as good as their 7xxx equalients when it comes to DX9

[lonewolfxix]

the 8300 to 8600 series are infact very bad for gaming on the whole performance you get for how much you paid, I agree, but the 8600GTS can perform in DX9, not at everyone's expectations, but it can, the 8800GTS is also a good performer in DX9, MS FSX doesn't run in DX10? most people don't use DX10 anyway, even with the latest of hardware my friend doesn't run Vista. the way Dx10 cards work make them good for all round stuff when the processor cannot handle everything. and 8000 series not strong enough to run FSX? I ran FSX on my GeForce FX5900XT 128mb which was a budget high end card in 2001 on it, okay, it looked crap but it ran! Could of also been due to my processor and RAM.
Want something that can run High Def and also help with processing when your CPU just isn't enough? a directx10 based card with it's unified shader architecture can help, It's not a necessity, but it can.

Also, why 2x1GB or 1x2GB RAM? not everyone can afford 2GB RAM sticks and not everyone wants 2-3GB of RAM especially if it means replacing every stick, a simple 1GB stick of DDR2-800 along with the 1GB of DDR2-533/667 currently in the system would more than likely be perfectly fine for anyone, I'm still living on 1GB albeit it's a little slow on the newer games at higher details. Not everyone has all the money in the world, some people want things that will help with minimal damage to their bank accounts, some people really couldn't care about price.

I'm a gamer, I constantly read about all this stuff and I like the sound of dx10 even if dx10.1 is coming out but my wallet isn't that fat and think about how long games take to be made for the latest and think how much the hardware costs when it comes out - the first DirectX10 card to come out cost ?500 here in the UK then it's little brother priced at something like ?350 did then IT'S little brother priced at ?200, now DX10 has came and games are started to be made for this new technology, very sparse right now.. but you can get a base DX10 card for ?20 upwards and it can - when in the right fields of work - provide an advantage over a dx9 card or an onboard like most turnkeys have. If DX10.1 is in the making - how long do you think MicroSoft will take making it? Think back to Windows Vista or LongHorn as it was first known as.. dx10.1 - just around the corner? for some reason I doubt it.. and they have to fix all the bugs first before people start adopting, which dx10 now is at the point where people will start investing into it.

[cwbolton]

errrm k i think were going a little of topic and i have on idea what you guys are saying?

[lonewolfxix]

Yes, yes we are, sorry. I must say, cwbolton, if you want the best deal it'll be an idea to wait until the January sales where you'll be able to pick up that pc for probably ?400 instead of ?600, If you were building one I would also say wait until then for the new "Core 3 Duo" Penryn's which will help drop the price on the Core2Duo range even more. Ofcourse, not every can wait the best part of 3 months for a new PC, in which case I still haven't really managed to find a better deal, has anyone else got any input on any specific machines they reckon will do the job well? (without going over budget)

[cwbolton]

also can you tell me more about overlcoking and wht it does the risks and etc

[lonewolfxix]

Overclocking is raising the "bus speed" of the processor to make it operate at higher speeds, I'll put it in my easiest to explain way. Think of a motorway.. for example... 8lanes wide (yes, big but there's reasons.) Say the speed is (wow this'll sound unrealistic but i can't do metric) 200mph and you have a truck in each lane transporting a lot of... food lol. the more lanes (or multiplier in cpu) and the faster it can go (bus speed) The more data you can get and process.

The risks? well if you're talking "i'm a nutter and run my cpu faster than anyone else" you can crash your operating system, most people who run systems like this generally have coolers the size of an average PC case alone and only run these systems for max of 6hours average unless "burning in" in which case, 24 to 48hours fully attended.
Now, a more realistic down to earth speed aslong as you run the right sort of system there's no risk, if you try and get a lot from a cheap power supply and cooling you can risk the core temperature of the cpu reaching critical and burning out or the power supply being soo overloaded all the transistors blow which is a fire hazard.
There's no reason why overclocking is a bad idea, you just have to be patient, if i get my PC fixed soon i'll try and post a guide on it, or I could go use my friends pc :P

[cwbolton]

right lol i sort of get it is there like a max limit on how much you can overlock?

[Thor Erik]

I've heard some flashes about 9Ghz on a Xeon(norwegian record, who i think also beat the wr)

But i'd say ~1-1.5 Ghz is a realistic clocking for permanent clocking =P
I know it's possible to clock to any speed, but anything above 5Ghz is so unrealistic you can forget that, 2 in my class are active overclockers(one clocked his NPU, he made it handle 100 mbps to 101, then it blew(no net, poor guy) :P)
One of them's PR is 4.5 Ghz, the other made 7.76 Ghz with freon cooling

[lonewolfxix]

it's a shame the server went down..

?700 you say? you should be able to get a good pc for that but none will really be overclockable except those from enthusiast sellers and the XPS series from Dell.

I can't really promise the overclockability of a PC unless I know exactly what goes into it, which means stuff like alienware and scan, and i know the top of the range dell xps' can (starting from ?999) I can spec one and maybe go as far as coming up and building it (sorry to say, I would have to charge as it's a long way away)

[cwbolton]

yeah well im still thinknig about and my aountie gave me her pc its a dell dimension 2350 do oyu think i can overclock that my I.T teacher says i can download a piece of software for overclocking if i know what my mother board is

[lonewolfxix]

Either your ICT teacher is lying or it can... if you download "CPU-z" from Here (http://www.cpuid.com/cpuz.php) then when you've downloaded it, extracted the folder and ran the "cpuz.exe" go to the "about" page on the tab bar and do a "registers dump" then send the file to me by attaching it or - and i doubt it'll be possible - copy and paste it all to me on PM and i'll see if it can actually be overclocked safely. It's best not to overclock turnkey systems and most will be restricted on the BIOS from being overclocked, but it could be worthwhile trying, gathered you don't break it.

[cwbolton]

if i do over clock its got a 1.7ghz hard drive would i be safely able to overclock it to 2 ghz

[lonewolfxix]

you mean 1.7ghz PROCESSOR. It depends, I know processors that can overclock from 2ghz to 3ghz, but it's dependent on a variety of factors. :)

[cwbolton]

so youve got my spec thing so what do you think

[lonewolfxix]

No.. I haven't got it... maybe you should send it via email.. I'll PM you my email now.

My cousin just bought ?150 worth of PC parts
AMD Athlon64 X2 4000+
1gb of DDR2-667
MSI 690G motherboard (onboard graphics etc)
Seagate 250GB s-ata3G

Pretty decent for ?150 :)

[cwbolton]

yeah well my processer is intel celeron and 1.7ghz would i be able to overclock it to 2 ghz?

[lonewolfxix]

after about 5minutes looking over the key parts for a successful overclocking pc:
CPU
RAM
Motherboard

I reckon that no, you cannot overclock this pc, Here's why:
Motherboard: i845GL - this board can handle max of DDR266 (133fsb memory) you have a 256mb DDR266 DIMM memory module already installed and it won't operate at a higher frequency
Your cpu has a 400fsb which is the max the i845GL can take
If this processor were to be put in a more recent Socket 478 board and new, higher speed ram it would be possible to overclock it to 2ghz successfully, but in it's current state it's not really possible.

[cwbolton]

i got 150 mb's of ram chips would that do the trick

[lonewolfxix]

No, no it would not, they are probably incompatible and would probably lower the system performance due to the speed even if they fitted. Although PC's are simple, they're not that simple.

[cwbolton]

what do you mena nad they are compatabile

[lonewolfxix]

Have you tried putting them in? I'm expecting they're SDRAM since the total adds upto 150mb, which is one of these combinations
64mb+64mb+32
128+32
and anything in between.
Would anyone else agree with me it is SDRAM which is INCOMPATIBLE with a motherboard running DDR memory as quoted from the email Cwbolton sent me:

Chipset
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Northbridge Intel i845GL rev. B1
Southbridge Intel 82801DB (ICH4) rev. 02
Memory Type DDR
Memory Size 256 MBytes
Memory Frequency 132.9 MHz (3:4)
CAS# 2.5
RAS# to CAS# 3
RAS# Precharge 3
Cycle Time (tRAS) 6
DRAM Idle Timer 16


Memory SPD
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DIMM #1

General
Memory type DDR
Manufacturer (ID) Samsung (CE00000000000000)
Size 256 MBytes
Max bandwidth PC2100 (133 MHz)
Part number M3 68L3223CTL-CB0
Serial number 4303D179
Manufacturing date Week 82/Year 02

What I mean is that there's memory, then there's good memory, memory can be put in and run like normal and gives decent performance, then you have good memory, you put it in, it sometimes needs to be set up properly but when it is it runs great and it can be overclocked, yours however, can't. and adding more will definitely not aid in the overclockability, more like hinder it's overclockability anymore, let me get a second opinion from JASPERKING!

[Jasperking]

basicly how it works is... lets say that you have a motherboard that supports DDR ram only.
Then you can only use DDR ram and nothing lower.
But if u happen to buy DDR2 ram then u would have to buy a motherboard that is compatible with DDR2 ram.. although you would have to upgrade the cpu too because of the skt changes.
It can be a pain in the arse but the performance is alot better and faster. Ofcourse you may need to upgrade your power supply if the wattage and amp output is too low.
So ye pc's are very costly and are not future proof because you will need to upgrade again... then throw away old parts or make another pc with them or sell them on ebay if anyone really wants to buy them :)

Also lonewolf seems right about your old ram being SDRAM considering the sizes and how old they are... so you will prolly have to put them in the bin lol

Because you are a programmer you will need a good cpu such as a dual core to process the coding faster. Same with the 3D design but you will also need a good gfx card if you are making a game and need to run alot of high detail models with a decent fps.

[cwbolton]

ok ok calm

[cwbolton]

no they work on my old pc and i have 2 512 mb ram chips thst are DDR ram and i putting them in ok

[lonewolfxix]

okay then, so anyway, this pc will not overclock and as far as i'm concerned, without replacing the psu and motherboard is not expandable.

[cwbolton]

right well ok then thanks


on another note my firend was overclocking his 4gb ram 1.7 ghz laptop to 3ghz and it overheared lol no pc for him we tried warning him

[Jasperking]

i dunno how old ur m8s laptop is (prolly pretty new with 4gb of ram..) but usually there is a mechanism that can stop pc's from overheating when u overclock :/ dont know much about laptops though...

[lonewolfxix]

4gb of ram in a 1.7ghz laptop? useless, unless of course it's an intel core based laptop
Laptops aren't meant to be overclocked, doing it is practically destroying it your laptop. the only ones that overclock cost about ?1000
Why not just get a low cost PC made for overclocking? I'd be happy to spec it if you find a local who would be willing to build it or paying for my transport to your area.

Yes, laptops were the first to have a device to stop the computer from overheating, AMD being the first to integrate it in 2001 and intel were the first to put it in a desktop pc chip

[Jasperking]

well i guess laptops need it cause of how hot they get... its enough to make u sweat.... but anyway getting lonewolf to spec the pc is prolly a good idea sinse he specs good pc's... so far.. :p

[lonewolfxix]

I've spec Jasperking's and that's the only people you will probably know of PC's I've spec'd :) People like my PC's, especially when they give me stuff for it and it's not a cheap case 8-) lol

[Thor Erik]

Lonewolfixix:
The Intel chips got it integrated in the cpu(aka a Termistor(Termal-Resistor)) it's been around since the first P3's and up(i accidentally broke the fan on my P3 years ago, the CPU is still working) AMD's usally blow up(at least on the desktop versions) intel just trottle the clockspeed(through the termistor))
Jasperking:
The heat issue is a new thing(relative).
AMD introdused trotteling because they where planning to introduce faster and less heat efficient(heat/speed) cpu's
back in 2k-2k1 heat wasn't such a big deal(many laptops(including my old one) where fan less and used newer(at the time) amd chips, and a fanless system)

[lonewolfxix]

I knew how they regulated the speeds, and like i said, it's been integrated in intel cpu's for awhile but AMD's only introduced it as a standard across their range when amd athlon64 and semprons came out but you could also get AthlonXP-M's where the technology was also present.

[cwbolton]

yeah well it was 1.7 GHZ but he overclocked it to 3GHZ lol my pc is 3.5 GHZ with stock everything

[Jasperking]

3.5ghz is pretty slow now if its a single core lol. Just incase you was thinking ur pc was uber or summit :p

[lonewolfxix]

3.5ghz is obviously an old intel netburst which have been pretty crap for awhile :)

3ghz is pretty high for an intel core processor, especially one in a laptop. But yeah, your chances of overclocking a processor that came in a turnkey system without first changing all the parts is very slim. Just get a PC built for the purpose.

[cwbolton]

its pentium 4 and 3.5 ghz is pretty fast if your not over cloking or spending millions on your pc

[Jasperking]

lol millions on your pc? my pc is dual 2.4ghz stock and that cost $1600 when i first bought it :/

[cwbolton]

haha lol 3.5 i got it for 800 pounds (1600 dollars) with like the best everything at the time

[Jasperking]

yeah but how long ago was that m8 XD

[lonewolfxix]

?800 will never get the best of everything, 3.5ghz never existed and oh yeah, those processors always sucked. i've been playing on personal computers from an early age and my social life is pretty crap due to how much time i spent on pc's. I kind of know the best of each era :P

Anyway, shall i close this topic or are you actually going to ask any questions relevant to the thread?

[Jasperking]

i think you should close it and make a thread relevent to what we have been talking about recently :p

[lonewolfxix]

a... bragg about your brass turnkey rig while we bragg about our platinum self built ubar rigs? lol...

cwbolton, again if you want a pc built i may possibly be able to go up there and build one if im paid... or if the sum is paid to be i can build it and send it in the proper way.... i have to go up to leicester before wemas to build a pc... lol

[cwbolton]

yes well money is a little tight at the moment id liek you to keep this topic open and if i have any questions about anything to od with pc's ill post them here and i got my pc 3 years ago and its amazing to say its ?800 and pre built

[Jasperking]

prolly not worth much now though lol especially if it was pre built. But as long as it runs i guess

[lonewolfxix]

3 years ago i spent ?350 on a pc, it beat my friends ?1200 sony which he had upgraded to 2gb of ram and radeon x850xt was the only place it beat me which cost him ?200 or so alone (he is in america too, by the way, alot cheaper for stuff there.)
his pc lagged behind my pc which the processor and motherboard only cost ?60. Netburst hasn't been a good architecture since 1998 and turnkey systems were never meant for more than surfing the net, watching videos of whatever and doing homework. Unless of course it has a dedicated graphics card, then it's for trying to play games on. :)

[Jasperking]

hmm i remember my pentium 3.. it was really stable for what it was lol

[cwbolton]

ok well i have another question would i be able ot but a newer better processer and or motherbord for my pc? and fit it

[lonewolfxix]

of course, if your PC supports full ATX, that's the easiest way. motherboard is about the hardest thing you could install and installing a new one would mean not using the OS supplied with the pc in most cases and will sometimes also mean changing the cpu and ram and possibly the graphics card. Especially since your current pc used the old intel pentium socket 478 which died a few years back which uses ram which is no longer used and also uses AGP graphics which are a huge commodity new. either buy used (no warranty.. if you break it you have to bin it) or upgrade everything (about the only things i can see you NOT upgrading in that case is the case depending on the size you most likely will need to with my experience of normal consumer dell machines and possibly optical drive and they're only ?15[optical/dvd r/w etc.]-?30[decent-ish case] each)

[Jasperking]

i think it would be best to buy a whole pc but the parts separately because it usually works out cheaper and better components.

[lonewolfxix]

that's a given in any situation, unless it's ingredients for something for one, like buying a few lbs of pasta to serve one or something. but it'll generally taste better.

[Jasperking]

according to some people in my college class when there are deals on they work out cheaper than actually buying the components :/

[lonewolfxix]

baring in mind sales only come a few times a year and stocks are already pretty low as they're trying to move old technology, they also use cheaper parts, alot of people will buy different parts to a turnkey plus OEM Windows... cheaper than retail.

[cwbolton]

hey i got a favour can you look ourt for some cheap sharder 2 hardware

[lonewolfxix]

"Cheap Sharder 2 hardware" do you mean "shader 2.0" which is a dead old shader model in direct x? a shader 2.0 graphics card can be had for about ?10 used or ?25 new, you can get shader 3.0 graphics cards for as low as ?35.

That is, if you're talking about the thing i'm thinking of.

[Jasperking]

hmm when he says shader 2 it does sound like a graphics card lol. Im guessing hes looking at an old game or 3d product that states u need shader 2.0

[lonewolfxix]

i'm almost positive it is :) the most expensive shader 2.0 product you can still buy new is ?100 but if you go used you can get the old 7950GX2 destined to not work in your dell, but yes... ?30 should be enough for a good shader 2.0 card.

[cwbolton]

yeah my pc isnt new enough to run the microsoft XNA addon for c# so i can code games it says i need shader 2.0 or higher and it says something about direct x too

[lonewolfxix]

shader 2.0 can be had in any modern card costing around ?20 or more, or less, though since i have no idea if you have an AGP slot i can't really recommend a card besides the *obviously will work* PCI card like a Radeon 9200SE which is no longer feasible as a decent card.